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It's All About the Pine Barrens!


"Interviews with People of the Pines"

Cliff Oakley (2000) Russ Juelg
on the Jersey Devil (2007)
Marilyn Schmidt (2000) Niki Gibersen (2007)

 

The Pine Barrens of New Jersey has so much rich history and so many people who hold this history in their minds and hearts. In an attempt to capture a bit of it, it is my hope that this page will become a documentary of sorts to save the memories of the fascinating people who have spent all or part of their lives in the pine barrens and surrounding shores of New Jersey.

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INTERVIEW WITH CLIFFORD OAKLEY (2000)
Ed. note: Cliff Oakley peacefully passed away in his home on May 13, 2008. He is missed by his many friends and family.

My first interview was with Clifford Oakley of Stafford Township, NJ. Cliff is a Recreation Aide at Wells Mills County Park in Waretown, a job he took after his retirement from NJ Bell, mostly because of his untiring love of the area. His knowledge of the former Estlow property and the hunting lodge, which is in the Wells Mills tract, is immense, and his memories of the region are sparked with color and light. At the time, I had known Cliff about 15 years; our first meeting was at "the cabin" where he introduced my daughter to the The Estlow Cabin, located at what is now Wells Mills County Park"mongoose", a small yet allegedly wild and very carniviorous mammal supposedly captured and held by Cliff in a small nesting box. She was seven at the time, and when he sprang the "trap" and a small furry toy flew out at her, it scared the "bejesus" out of her, much to Cliff's - and later, her own - delight! He is a charmingly endearing man, with rosy-pink cheeks and a childlike look, yet with a devilish look in his eye - for good reason, as you'll read in his interview! He is usually "in trouble" for one thing or another, usually for speaking his mind on the right things at the wrong time! His heart is golden through and through, though, and his stories are a rainbow of memories. He has reluctantly admitted to being an "old-timer" at the age of 70, so agreed to talk to me (he's a ham at heart, so I knew he wouldn't really mind!)

When was the Conrad Cabin built? (note: This cabin is on the Wells Mills Tract.)

 

PineyPower:

Cliff:


When was the cabin built?

April 1937

PineyPower:

And you were around at that time?

Cliff Oakley Cliff:

I came here, and I have a picture of it, May 30th, 1936 and we had a picnic, a family picnic over here in what we called the Moss Field, where Tilden Estlow used to pack moss. After we ate...we had watermelons in the lake to keep 'em cool...the refrigeration wasn't the best in those days...we had our watermelon, we had a baseball game and we walked through the woods to Mr. Estlow's house and walked over to where the cabin is now, it was on a knoll. There was a big oak tree on that south side, and I heard Uncle Tilden say, "Charlie, that will be at the corner of the cabin." The oak tree's gone now.

PineyPower:

Was Tilden your uncle?

Cliff:

No, but we called him "Uncle" out of respect because of his age. We were young, and they were old. I just wish I had been a little bit older and could have asked him more questions of the area. I think about that now, but as a child, you don't.

PineyPower:

But you've done so much research on the area...

I've gone back to 1760 and upstairs in my desk I have every property owner of Wells Mills since then. Tilden's father died in 1929. He willed all the property to Tilden. Tilt had a brother named Walker and Walker was a minister. Their father paid for him to go through college. I think it amounted to around $10,000 in four years. Their father thought that his was his fair share, so gave all the property here to Til himself.

PineyPower:

How large was the original property?

Cliff:

It was 387 acres. My grandfather, Charles Conrad, and my uncle, Grove Conrad, paid $10,000 for it.

PineyPower:

What's your first recollection of a hunting weekend at the cabin?

Cliff:

When the guys got together? (laughter). A lot of guys, a lot of beer! We did very little hunting. I think one year I didn't even bring my gun! (more laughter). We all behaved ourselves, but we had a good time.

PineyPower:

How old were you when you were allowed out with the big guys?

Cliff:

I first came gunning with my dad when I was very small. My dad would stay at the cabin for the week. I was 12 or 14. I never killed any deer. I remember I walked up to the head of the lake one day and I did see a buck, and I shot twice at it; I was so excited, and I reached into my pocket to get another shell and went to put the gun up and my chapstick fell out and hit the barrel, and with that noise, that deer was gone! (laughter)

There are a lot of memories here for me...lots of memories.(pause). I used to ride in the woods with him a lot; I used to watch him cut lumber in the saw mill, before it was torn down.

PineyPower:

When was it torn down?

Cliff:

In the late forties.

PineyPower:

Why did it get torn down?

Cliff:

Because he couldn't take care of it. He was too old to take care of it..

PineyPower:

Where was it located? Right where the dam is?

Cliff:

Yes, right where the dam is. There was another one right over the lake, on pilings. The last pictures I have of that were taken in 1919. If you turn around and look the other way over the stream was the mill I remember. Tilden's father had a patent on that mill...on the works of it, not the mill itself...the mechanical works. January 3rd, 1887 he got a patent from Washington. He never went to school, hardly at all. Every once in a while they say Pineys are dumb people - they aren't stupid people like some people think. I've been asked by people before they go out in the woods, "Are the Pineys going to shoot at us?" Carlton Beck - he wrote a lot of stories on this area. Those stories are fairly accurate. He's dead now. He was a minister; wrote ""Forgotten Towns of South Jersey", "More Forgotten Towns of South Jersey". He wrote several books, and I refer to them a lot. Wells Mills is in them a lot. That's where I first saw him. He spent a lot of time here.

PineyPower:

Where were you born?

Cliff:

Trenton - Mercer Hospital. But we came down here to Ship Bottom after that.

PineyPower:

Do you think of yourself as an "old timer"?

Cliff:

I can't say what I want to say! (laughter). I didn't get to go to high school down here. My mother and father weren't too happy with me and decided to send me away to prep school, so I went to Pennington Prep. for a year, then went to Barnegat High School; that's the grade school on Route 9 now, for the last three years.

PineyPower:

You mean you were getting in trouble even when you were a kid?

Cliff:

(Nods and grins). But I came home weekends on the train. Clinton Street Station is in Trenton. I picked the train up at 20 after 5; Pennsylvania Railroad to Freehold; waited 15 minutes and got the Central Railroad there that went down along Route 9. Central Railroad - not the Tuckerton Railroad - and it got into Barnegat at 8:00. It was a very enjoyable trip. Sometimes I'd be the only passenger on the train! The Central Railroad never went beyond Barnegat. Some people think so but it didn't. Then my parents would meet me there, or I would stay at my grandfather's house in Barnegat.

PineyPower:

So your grandparents lived in Barnegat?

Cliff:

You know where Jack's Barber Shop is on West Bay? And across the street was the Toms River Bank? The house in back of that is where my mother and my aunt were born. It was a duplex back there.

PineyPower:

Whereabouts in Ship Bottom did you live?

Cliff:

I'll get you a picture of it (he runs upstairs and back)...This building - see the third window on the second floor? The train came into this railroad station at 8:00 and I was so little I couldn't see out of the window, so my grandmother brought me a green stool - I never forgot it - and put it by the window so I could look out and watch the train. I was three years old - but I can remember it!

PineyPower:

So your grandparents lived in Barnegat?

Cliff:

Going into Barnegat, if you remember Bailey's Hardware - it's an antique shop now and there's a detailing shop next door...if you make a left turn it goes over Memorial Drive. When you get to Memorial Drive, you look to your left, you'll see concrete pins there where Grandfather used to back his trucks down...there's a little hill and you'd see the trains - the train would go right to the top to the bins on the track, then back the truck up; and you'd have a hopper. You'd undo the hopper and a little coal goes in there, and the thing jammed! Over the whole train - you couldn't even see the tracks! The guy's name was Bill Bowen- I don't know whatever happened to him - he was older than I was, so maybe he's not alive.

If you're going to get involved with the Pineys, you're going to find there's no end to history. Last week was Penns Place that we talked about...Then, another place that's interesting - if you go up to the railroad bridge on Route 72 where the bridge crosses, and that's the old stage road that goes to Tuckerton, and you go out that road a little ways - I don't know how many miles - you'll see a big concrete building, that was a recycling plant, but that was years and years ago and I can't find that much out about it, but I believe it was owned by the Japanese, and the building's still there, and there's a little track where it came off the railroad - see the railroad crossed over 72, and you can see where the track comes off the railroad. Whatever they were doing there, grinding up junk cars or whatever, I can't find a lot about it. I don't remember it ever being in operation. Nobody seems to know much about it.

PineyPower:

When you left Ship Bottom, where did you go?

Cliff:

I built a house in Stafford in 1949. When my mother died in '58, her house was right along side of that and much bigger, so I moved into that. My house was built by H.G. Cramner and Son, both of them dead now - Lonnie and Herb. They were the biggest builders in Ocean County in our area, and the house cost $9,700. My first tax bill - I never forgot it - was $97.00.

PineyPower:

Who do you think is the most colorful character you know around here?

Cliff:

Sammy Hunt would have to be among the top.

PineyPower:

How many years have you known him?

Cliff:

Oh.....46 years.

PineyPower:

How old is Sammy now?

Cliff:

He just turned 87 in September. His daughter was here last week, and when he reaches 90 - she already gave me an invitation - they're going to have a big birthday party for him in Brookville. "You're #1 on the list", she told me.

PineyPower:

I remember seeing Sammy back in 1983 at a local nightspot, dancing nonstop with all the ladies.

Cliff:

He danced here last week!

PineyPower:

What about Emil Brown?

Cliff:

He lived in Hog Waller, which is a little town south of Chatsworth. The house was like this (crooked) - you'd blow on it and it would come down. But I understand he's moved to Egg Harbor City.

PineyPower:

Tell me the story again about Sammy, the tree and you.

Sammy Hunt, a legendary character of the Pine BarrensCliff:

Ohhh. Well, out front of where we're sitting right now was a walnut tree. Mother nature with the help of some lightning struck the tree and it died. After a long while, I didn't know what to do with it so I came over with my chain saw, not thinking of Sammy Hunt, I cut the walnut down. I cut it into 30" pieces to burn in my fireplace. Well Sammy came along, saw the wood on my woodpile, and I can't tell you the words that were exchanged between the two of us. Well, for six months, I'd run into him; he'd ignore me; I'd see him at Damon's store, I'd say, "Sam, how are you doin'?" and he'd ignore me. I was at the cabin on a Saturday afternoon, and a knock came at the door, and here was the man, grinning from ear to ear, with a chair in his hand made out of that walnut tree, and he gave it to me. I have it still. I wouldn't ever get rid of it.

PineyPower:

How long ago was that?

Cliff:

Oh, that was thirty years ago. He came in just as pleased as could be. It's a beautiful chair. It's heavy. People wanted to buy it from me - there's no price on it. I wouldn't sell it. All 'cause he was mad! Sometimes when he'd talk to me, he'd tap me on the shoulder - well I think I was black and blue that day!

PineyPower:

Sam was a fairly well-known boat builder in his day...

Cliff:

(Pointing to a painting of Sammy Hunt on the wall) There's his sneakbox. Also a very good banjo player, and a builder of banjoes. He worked for Ocean County Road Dept. for twenty-some years, I think one of the best workers that Spike Corliss ever had. Spike I think was a good superintendent.

PineyPower:

There was a documentary on Public Television about Sammy, right?

Cliff:

They filmed him several times. They just did another one on him last year, but I haven't seen it.

PineyPower:

What got you interested in the "Jersey Devil" (ed. note: Cliff portrays the Jersey Devil during local events, together with Lillian Hoey, who tells the tale)

"The Jersey Devil"Cliff:

Years ago, I had a movie studio from California come out to the cabin, and I didn't feel I knew enough about the Jersey Devil, so I asked Jeff Brower, a Piney born and raised in Chatsworth, to help me, and I think that's how I got started. Then when I started working for the County, I found out they were doing Jersey Devil Programs with Lillian. Her husband was doing it but didn't want to do it any more, so decided to start doing it with her and still am.

PineyPower:

You've performed in Trenton?

Cliff:

Yes, in front of Former Governors Byrne and Florio

PineyPower:

How many times a year do you do the Jersey Devil?

Cliff:

A couple of years ago I did it too many times and ended up in the hospital. It's a really tough job sometimes. I guess I did it 10 or 12 times last year.

PineyPower:

I've heard you've been "attacked" by kids!

Cliff:

Oh, yes, I've been beat up several times - I was bruised, my tail was pulled, my "eyes" were gauged, my feet were stamped on, by kids. So, last year, I had guards. And when I do it here, I am behind a fence. Last year when I came out of the woods to the fence, by the time I took a breath, the kids had run out to the parking lot! They had to go get them! I do schools, we're going to be at the top of the Forked River Mountain in April, after the Earth Day Cleanup. I try to be a nice devil, but children don't always believe me!

PineyPower:

So, tell me some more history.

Cliff:

Conrad's Store is where the Barnegat Post Office is now. Something very interesting, if you go up to West Bay Avenue by Jack's, at Memorial Drive, before my time, and I'm 70, Conrad's had the original sawmill down there, on the corner of Hillside and Memorial, and it was operated by steam. I have a picture of it, with my family standing outside waving. The next sawmill the Conrads had was over across the street from the firehouse. And that sawmill I remember Enich Olowich was the sawyer, and my grandfather had a man by the name of Bill Camp as the helper. On the same side of the street was a little red house and he lived there. It burnt down once and my grandfather built it back up again. I don't know the last year it was in operation. They cut cedar there, made shingles, and plaster lathe. He owned a lot of land; all the cedar was cut by hand, way before chainsaw time. Barnegat has a lot of history. There was a man, when I was a little boy, his name was Andy Brown. He had a pushcart. He wore boots up to his knees; he had a beard. He would go from house to house with his pushcart selling clams, eels, fish. I can remember one day my grandmother going out. She wanted flounder for dinner and it was 25 cents a pound. Now it's nine dollars! But he was an old character. His picture from the waist up was featured on "Field and Stream". They called him Andy Dandy Brown. There's a song about him.

PineyPower:

Now, there's the story about the deer in Barnegat....

Cliff:

Oh, I remember Pete. I used to feed him Lucky Strike Cigarettes .....he loved them. Pete's home was right in back of the Masonic Home - that's still there. He was quite a visitor in town. He'd come to the A&P. Mr. Miller was the manager there. He became quite a nuisance there. He'd roam around town, and he'd go into the store and eat the vegetables. There would be a trooper on the corner, and he'd have to stop traffic to let Pete go by! This was in the 30's. I started smoking when I was 11! There was a little alleyway between the Masonic Home and where Pete lived. You'd walk back and that was where Pete lived. Finally he got to be too much of a nuisance and they shipped him to the Philadelphia Zoo.

PineyPower:

Then there's the ol' Frog Farm...

Cliff:

Oh my goodness!

PineyPower:

Weren't you the owner of the Frog Farm?

Cliff:

Not exactly. I got involved in that. To make it real quick, 'cause it's too long, Bill Sneddon was an officer in Waretown and Bob Kruyzman was an officer. Bill Sneddon just retired last year as chief of police, so he's been around a long while. They didn't have any place to get coffee at night, and WOBM Radio had opened up and they were very good about letting them come in for a cup of coffee. They had hired a disc jockey called "Cowboy Joe", and apparently he had grown up in Brooklyn. Joe happened to ask Bill what these "Pineys" did to entertain themselves. I don't know how it happened, but they came up with the Frog Farm in Wells Mills. It kept on getting bigger, bigger, more lies, bigger frogs. We had one frog we caught that weighed 27 pounds. We put a chain on it - I still have the chain up at the cabin - we chained him outside. We got up the next morning and he broke the chain. A lady called the next morning from Brookville, said he went over her clothesline, and we never saw him again. His name was Toby. We never frogged on Sunday - a religious day. All this we told this man (Cowboy Joe) and, well, he was absorbing all this and putting it on the air too.

PineyPower:

You said "we". I didn't think you were involved....

Cliff:

Well, not much...heh heh heh! I took frogs up to him. I went up to Clayton's and bought some choice frog legs from the cook, his name was Garfield. I took 'em up to Cowboy Joe and presented it to him with a bottle of "liquor". He wanted to know how we packed our frogs, so we told him they were so big we had to pack 'em head first. Anything you'd tell him, he'd believe. Mr. Miller, who used to be a freeholder, and was part owner of WOBM, told me he got the most phone calls from the Frog Farm story! I think that was the most news coverage I ever had.

Cliff:

Mr. Cornelius stopped in yesterday, and gave me an "Egg Harbor Hurry-up"

The first time I ever tasted one was from a man called Huey Bolton. He was the head cook for a gunning club, called the Marsh Shelter Gunning Club, over off Harvey Cedars and I used to stop in there. He was famous for making it here. Mrs. Cornelius sent one up for me yesterday. The way you make it, cook your pork fat or bacon, cut your potatoes up - if you're making a small one, 4 or or 5, put 'em in there, cut up an onion, 25 clams, chop 'em up, a little bit of water and simmer it. When it comes out take a little flour and water to thicken it up and you're done! It's delicious!

 

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